F1 gilt to mate F1 boar.

[johntrix]

doc question lang po


1) F1 gilt to mate F1 boar.

ano po ang tawag sa mga biik nito? chopsuey na ba? ito ang pinagtatalunan namin kanina. ang sabi nya F2 raw ang anak nito ang sabi ko chopsuey na un. nang nagavail ako sa isang farm ng gagawing boar, meron daw, kaso f1 lahat nirerelease nila. maganda pa rin ba ang mga piglets nito for fatteners? anyone tried this?

some commented:
"F1 sow x F1 boar = 2nd generation ng F1 (terminal/maternal offsping)"
"(50%duroc x 50%pietrain) f1 boar    X     f1 gilt (50%landrace x 50%largewhite) =  4 ways cross"

so kung ganon:
F1 GILT (50%landrace x 50%largewhite)    X      F1 BOAR (50%landrace x 50%largewhite)
=  2nd generation ng F1 nga ba?

ibig sabihin  po pala mas mabilis gumawa ng F1 piglets thru F1 parents and no need a pure boar. kase if

F1 GILT (50%landrace x 50%largewhite)    X      100% PURE BOAR (landrace  OR largewhite)
= F2 lang sya di po ba?


parang nagulo ung dating alam ko sa crisscrossing ah. please enlighten me doc. dahil i found out na ung boar na nabili ko is f1 boar (landrace x largewhite) na akala ko is pure.

another thing doc, also i read:

F1 LW 50% LR 50%     x     LW 100%   =   LW 75% LR 25%

LW 75% LR 25%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 88% LR 12%

LW 88% LR 12%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 94% LR   06%

LW 94% LR 06%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 97% LR   03%

2) can we possibly create a GP or PS stock by upgrading an F1?


gusto ko lang makasigurado and get second opinion if tama nga po
thanks doc.
 

[nemo]

Again, this topic talaga is a bit difficult to understand...

To make it clear the word F1 does not mean na maganda ang lahi ng baboy.

F1 is just a designation meaning  to some extent "unang  lahi"... Na aassociate lang na F1=magandang lahi sa dahilang ang mga big farms ang kadalasang gumagamit ng terminology na ito

Chopsuey pig - You can only say na chopsuey ang animal if hindi mo alam ang kaniyang breed.

Technically speaking:

F1 x F1 = F2 ( dapat magkapatid parehas ang F1 / inbred siya)

 although ngayon accepted na rin na sabihing

 F1 x F1 = F2 (Hindi magkapatid ang F1)


"(50%duroc x 50%pietrain) f1 boar    X     f1 gilt (50%landrace x 50%largewhite) =  4 ways cross" = tama din po ito because you are pertaining to the bloodline na involve sa mating and F2 ang tawag sa lahi nila

 2nd generation F1?= so far ala akong alam na ganitong terminology, pasok kasi siya as F2

question : ibig sabihin  po pala mas mabilis gumawa ng F1 piglets thru F1 parents and no need a pure boar. kase if....

answer: all animal produced by your sow and boar is called F1


crisscross, backcross, rotational etc... this is the way/procedure that you have done to attain your F1, F2 etc...

example:
F1 GILT (50%landrace x 50%largewhite)    X      100% PURE BOAR (landrace  OR largewhite)
= F2 siya at the same time ang tawag sa ginawa mo na procedure is crisscross or backcross , depend na lang kung sino si boar or gilt dun sa naunang mating that resulted the F1 mo.


tama na man ito niround of nga lang siya..

F1 LW 50% LR 50%     x     LW 100%   =   LW 75% LR 25%

LW 75% LR 25%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 88% LR 12%

LW 88% LR 12%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 94% LR   06%

LW 94% LR 06%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 97% LR   03%



GP and PS is just a terminology/designation. Kung ang baboy mo ginamit mo as source ng PS then pwede mo siyang tawagin GP ng farm mo...

Again usually ang GP and PS are magagandang lahi ng baboy...

[johntrix]

Again, this topic talaga is a bit difficult to understand...

To make it clear the word F1 does not mean na maganda ang lahi ng baboy.

F1 is just a designation meaning  to some extent "unang  lahi"... Na aassociate lang na F1=magandang lahi sa dahilang ang mga big farms ang kadalasang gumagamit ng terminology na ito

Chopsuey pig - You can only say na chopsuey ang animal if hindi mo alam ang kaniyang breed.

Technically speaking:

F1 x F1 = F2 ( dapat magkapatid parehas ang F1 / inbred siya)

 although ngayon accepted na rin na sabihing

 F1 x F1 = F2 (Hindi magkapatid ang F1)


"(50%duroc x 50%pietrain) f1 boar    X     f1 gilt (50%landrace x 50%largewhite) =  4 ways cross" = tama din po ito because you are pertaining to the bloodline na involve sa mating and F2 ang tawag sa lahi nila

 2nd generation F1?= so far ala akong alam na ganitong terminology, pasok kasi siya as F2

question : ibig sabihin  po pala mas mabilis gumawa ng F1 piglets thru F1 parents and no need a pure boar. kase if....

answer: all animal produced by your sow and boar is called F1


crisscross, backcross, rotational etc... this is the way/procedure that you have done to attain your F1, F2 etc...

example:
F1 GILT (50%landrace x 50%largewhite)    X      100% PURE BOAR (landrace  OR largewhite)
= F2 siya at the same time ang tawag sa ginawa mo na procedure is crisscross or backcross , depend na lang kung sino si boar or gilt dun sa naunang mating that resulted the F1 mo.


tama na man ito niround of nga lang siya..

F1 LW 50% LR 50%     x     LW 100%   =   LW 75% LR 25%

LW 75% LR 25%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 88% LR 12%

LW 88% LR 12%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 94% LR   06%

LW 94% LR 06%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 97% LR   03%



GP and PS is just a terminology/designation. Kung ang baboy mo ginamit mo as source ng PS then pwede mo siyang tawagin GP ng farm mo...

Again usually ang GP and PS are magagandang lahi ng baboy...

doc yong sa akin ay different parents and came from different farms too, parehas na white F1. if we put bloodline by percentage:

(50%landrace x 50%largewhite)  F1 BOAR    X     F1 GILT (50%landrace x 50%largewhite) =   (50%landrace x 50%largewhite) PIGLETS

= they are still F1 not F2 po.
 
correct me po if im wrong kase, i follow bloodline percentage para mahanapan ko rin kung ano ang dapat i-pair sa sususnod. thanks doc.

[mikey]

F1s bred to F1s by means of line breeding,half brother to half sisters but of the same breed is done because there is something the breeder/producer wishes to take advantage of,but of the the same breed.If you were breeding 2 F1s of different breeds you would be breeding chopsuey (Philippines) or heinz 57 or mutt in english.May also be called experimential,doubt if it would have any value.F1 sows are bred to terminal sires of purebred breeds by hog producers worldwide because it is a proven method and to breed 2 F1s of 4 different breeds is only creating a heniz 57 or mutt and I see no real value other than the boar was cheaper to purchase in the first place over a purebreed.Your question is very confusing to understand.

Experimential at best,doubt it has any real value,who knows.

[johntrix]

F1s bred to F1s by means of line breeding,half brother to half sisters but of the same breed is done because there is something the breeder/producer wishes to take advantage of,but of the the same breed.If you were breeding 2 F1s of different breeds you would be breeding chopsuey (Philippines) or heinz 57 or mutt in english.May also be called experimential,doubt if it would have any value.F1 sows are bred to terminal sires of purebred breeds by hog producers worldwide because it is a proven method and to breed 2 F1s of 4 different breeds is only creating a heniz 57 or mutt and I see no real value other than the boar was cheaper to purchase in the first place over a purebreed.Your question is very confusing to understand.

Experimential at best,doubt it has any real value,who knows.

Sir mickey thanks po sa sagot. it just happened na nacoconfuse din ako sa result according na rin sa ibat ibang comments. some would say, F!, F2, 4 way cross etc. like:

"(50%duroc x 50%pietrain) colored f1 boar    X     white f1 gilt (50%landrace x 50%largewhite) =  4 ways cross"

both involve are F1. and 4way cross piglets are still good as slaughter hogs right? naging 4-way cross kc it consist of 4 different breeds right?
it just happend na white F1 boar (50%landrace x 50%largewhite) ung naavail ko.

SO MEAN TO SAY, PANGIT NG I-PAIR ITO?

thanks in advance.

[mikey]

North America,(Canada & the USA)has been breeding the F1 sows for over 15 plus years now because the consumer today demands a leaner hog.The producer gets better results from F1s sows crossed with a purebred boar and this is a proven method for commercial producers here.The ADG is better with this 3 way cross over any other.I have never heard or know of any producer here on a commercial level breed hogs as a 4 way cross.The duroc is known as a hog that is able to handle hot stressful conditions but is also known to be unpredictable in temperment and not always the top choice for a terminal sires.The pietrain is known for slower growth to maturity and does poorly in stressful conditions.Maybe the reason someone would want a duroc/pietrain mix sire is to chill out the temperment of the duroc but I know of no one here in N.America thats uses this cross for a terminal sire under commercial conditions.As I stated,experimential at best and why play with something that is already proven to work as best as it does.
Like I said who knows,might be something to it but why is no one here doing it??

[johntrix]

thanks sir mickey. will keep that in mind. what about upgrading ng F1 stock like:

F1 LW 50% LR 50%     x     LW 100%   =   LW 75% LR 25%

LW 75% LR 25%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 88% LR 12%

LW 88% LR 12%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 94% LR   06%

LW 94% LR 06%         x      LW 100%  =   LW 97% LR   03% === Pure Stock Large white

do u practice this in N. America? Im not a Geneticist that surely oppose this method. But kung sa tingin ng nakakararami its ok to do this shortcut way to upgrade stock, mas makakatipid tau availabing pure breed di po ba?

[mikey]

under commmercial operations here it is either a F1 sow (landrace X large white) or a purebreed landrace sow that is used for the pork industry mostly,there are exceptions.The terminal sire is either a purebreed of landrace or duroc or this american breed a hampshire or berkshire (white with black) on its body that is used.To the best of my knowledge the F1 sows are the end of the line,they are bred as terminal,meaning both males and females are sent to slaughter.Our choice of slaughter hog is gilts (females)Some of the meat packers only want gilts over the males for pork.There is more gilts shipped to slaughter.Something about better pork from the gilts over the males.Over weights and males are used for hot dogs and such.The perfered choice for our pork in North America comes from gilts.
Here our terminal sires are always a purebreed but some of the smaller operations or for personal use will use any breed as a terminal sire.Mostly all our hogs here are white in colour coats,thats what the customer wants.
I would think if you were to breed up at some point one could get a purebreed, but its time consuming.Its hard to say,you might be on to something.Myself,I would just look around for a purebreed and save on time but if you like playing around with genetics then go for it you might breed something really worthwhile.The sky is the limit.
Durocs are known for their ADG and should not be ruled out but I see very few durocs here used for sires.Large whites are a British breed while the landrace is American.Durocs are both American & Canadian.Pietrains are Dutch.There are so many combinations of crossbreeds today its hard to keep track of them all,hehehe.
On a commercial level,its hard enough to make money from hogs,operations stick with what works well.

Good Luck with your venture,sounds interesting and who knows maybe you will breed something very special down the road.Best of luck to you and I wish you are the success with your hog business.

[johntrix]

hehehe ok thanks. i might end up breeding a kingkong pig. might as well stick to what works well. 2 crosses only if possible.mahirap kasi sa lugar namin ang magavail ng pure breed. tawid dagat pa, and it means a lot of money.

[mikey]

I never said not to try it,it is experimential in nature and like I said who knows what you might get,maybe something good,maybe heniz 57 or mutt at best.Like I said in the last 15 years the white hogs have been breed for high production in a commercial operation and leaner that the white hogs during the 60s and 70s and into the 80s.North American and European hogs are breed for maximum growth and for leaner pork but Asia likes a fatter hog so I really do not think the colour coats makes much difference in Asia or leanest as fat gives meat its flavour.

Maybe a king kong hog,I would think one would need some duroc in the bloodlines and use in-breeding to produce this super hog.hehehe.4 way breed,interesting.

[johntrix]

also another concern of mine.

napapansin ko sa ilang sows ko kase noong di pa ako gumagamit ng AI, gamit ko traditional bulog na dinadala sa farm ko. di naman ganon kareliable yong breed na dala nila. so in other words pwedeng F1, chopsuey o fattener na lang ung mga bulugan dala nila even they say purebreed yon. di naman sa minamaliit ko mga nagbizbiznis ng boar for hire dito kaso since nagpopost kayo ng prices ng pure breed dito then duda na ko kung san galing mga boar na yon some of them merong 10 boars for hire.

now i wasn't that satisfied sa mga piglets na naproduce galing sa boars na mga yon even i got good stocks of f1 sows. nagpursige akong gamitin ang AI kahit napakalayo ang pinanggalingan nito. ang tanong ko po is, naapektuyahan na kaya ang quality ng F1 sows ko since nagamit na at nakailang anak na sila using poor quality boars/ibat ibang boars unknow kung anong lahi? kung baga sa tagalog e nalaspag na yong quality kahit na ipares mo sya sa REAL PUREBREED.

kasi kung me side effects o pangit na resulta (siguro naka3-4 parity na yong ibang sows) then i should cull them and get fresh F1 sows.

[mikey]

Very true,I have found this to be the case also in the Philippines.Should someone tell you landrace that does not mean its a purebreed may mean mixed with a landrace so one has to be careful when buying foundation stocks for breeders.Another problem is sometimes the piglets born do not grow very well even when fed well with high quality feeds,this is most likely do to breed problems,poor quality breeding stock.One has to buy their foundation stocks from honest breeders with a proven track record.Its a catch 22.It might be possible to AI them with a purebreed duroc and start breeding up and keeping only the best for future mothers.It is possible to breed your own mix and they can be very good producers,its time consuming.

In N.America a breeding sow is kept for 2-2 1/2 years then culled to the processed meats slaughter house.

[mikey]

Johntrix

you might consider breeding half your sows by AI to a duroc and the other half to a landrace,make sure from purebreeds of duroc and landrace by AI.That way you could watch and see which litters are producing the best and select those as future breeders both females and 1 boar.This might be the cheapest way to do it but it will take some time before you have new foundation stocks.
Not all piglets grow at the same rate and select only those that show real promise.
In N.America a breeding sow is only bred for 2- 2 /2 years then culled,all runts all culled after 1-2 days after being born as the producer has no time and expence to keep those that are not growing well.Hogs that do poorly are culled right up to the time before shipment to the meat packers.

Hogs today are a tough business worldwide.Lets hope 2010 will be better for us all.

[johntrix]

yes perhaps, that i will do. but neither of those purebreed (AI boars), that i should get my future boar to might be a bad idea. then im gona get triple cross future boar, instead of just F1 . to that issue, i might get an answer as i visited one farm here and convince him to share me one pure breed male piglet (largewhite). this farm owns 4 purebreed (landrace, largewhite, duroc & hamshire pietrain) exclusively use for their sows only. well, i hope he keeps gene data recording so we'll know which is which.

by the way, what do you mean of:
"all runts all culled after 1-2 days after being born as the producer has no time and expence to keep those that are not growing well"

you mean you kill all runt piglets? you keep sows in 2 or 2 n half year that would get 6 parities per sow, am i right?

[mikey]

johntrix
That is a good idea to visit with this farm and ask some questions and see if you can reach a deal to buy or AI to your sows.The name of the game is to have your sows farrow with decent numbers of piglets that have good ADG,average daily gain compared to their feed intake.The faster they grow the better for the producer.

Runts,when a sow farrows the smallest piglets (runts) are culled a day or 2 later,its not worth to keep these piglets as the producer knows they will not finish to the desired weight in the time alotted by contract.It might sound cruel but its business.I have seen hogs 2-3-4 months old that got sick and they too are culled because it is cheaper than treating them with medicines.

Breeding sows have a life span under commercial operations between 4-6 parity,then replaced with new sows.This is common under commercial operations.Once you are under contract you realize how little control you really have.Yes you feed,clean and get them to market weights but you never really own them.