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samX
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 01:04:08 AM »

mikey,
500 grams a day and youre using hog concentrates..how much milk do you get from a doe?what breed do you use?
im fascinated with the baking soda and vinegar. vinegar are given to goats here before slaughter.and the kangkong,we do have many kangkong here but i dont give to goats im afraid they might acquire flukes(from snails).do you give kangkong directly or do you clean them first?

i agree with you that high floorings could cause problems during cold days. that why i put a windbreaker in my goat house(put it beside 2 walls).
about that goat eyelids. do you use famacha chart(seen it on the net)?..this is what i really want to learn.do you use herbal plants as dewormers?
what breed of goats do you have in your farm?

another farm:
ERiC goat FARM
location: pulong yantok,angat,bulacan
owner: eric dela cruz

eric is a member of gaspar3 and UBGSRA. he's an anglo man.
his farm is a pig farm converted to cattle farm and then now a goat farm.





for the young bucks





« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 01:06:42 AM by samX » Logged

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mikey
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 02:50:20 AM »

SamX
no we are not feeding hog concentrates yet,we feed  regular goat concentrates 16% protein comes from Cebu at 500 grams per day on average unless the does are preg from 2-4 months then half 250 grams then in the last month of preg bring it back up slowly.A milk goat needs a very high protein and calcium diet to produce milk.We are looking into the 21% hog protein concentrates to add in with the regular 16% starting 1 week after kidding plus extra calcium from mulanggay to see if we can get the anglos to produce more milk plus for a longer lactation period.This is experimential at this point in time.We now think that a goat uses more calcium from forage plants,also we are looking into dolomite lime to add with their concentrates,another experiment will explain to you later the reason.We are being consulted by a big goat milk farm in Texas USA,they offer us advice to help improve our operation.

Our breeds are anglos,upgrades,boers and hybrids (experimentials) and natives.So far our anglo girls only produce 2 litres of milk per day but their lactation period is only from 5-8 months ,5 months is very poor and 8 months is a real struggle to get a few there,climate is part of the problem but we feel it has alot to do with diet.Alaminos Goat Farm is the only farm that has goats producing to 300/305 days of lacation,good for them but it will take us many years of selected breeding and diet to get our girls to 300/305 days.

The kangkong I am talking about is the chinese or upland type not the one that grows in the muddy water,the local DA 2 years ago told all the people here to plant the new type for health reasons,all the old type of kangkong is gone now and the new type is grown like most other vegetables.

Baking soda is good for goats,your goat will not get bloat from concentrates or green forage if you add baking soda with their feed,you would be surprized how much baking soda a goat will eat at first.We like to add it with their salt,we are also thinking of using table salt over rock salt now as the iodine in the table salt should not hurt the goats.Goats need minerals,seaweed dried is good also.

The reason for the vinegar in drinking water,keeps the water clean,no algae will grow plus the mosquitos will not lay eggs in water with vinegar,helps to keep the goats ph level in their urine especially wethers and bucks so they do not get UC,Urine problems from grain feeding,very painful for the goat.There is an old belief that adding vinegar to the does drinking water before they come into heat may produce more females over males.I do not believe this to be fact.I know for fact that some people in the poorer areas in America use to add vinegar in the goats drinking water to keep them healthy.

Your pictures are real nice and they can help other people plan their barns.Thanks for all the great pictures really nice to look at.

Yes it is the chart (famacha),used mainly for field observation daily,the best is the fecal test but one needs a microscope and a set up.We use chemical dewormers only.One of the biggest problems we see is not to worm the kid(s) at 3 weeks of age,they can get cocci and if they do not get dewormed the kid(s) will not grow,stunted and runted and take on that pot belly look,the goat at that point is only good for meat and should never be used for breeding.We also like to worm our does 1-2 days after kidding.

Remember if a goat is not use to eating concentrates,you must start them off real slow and build it up slowly or they will get bloat and die,VERY IMPORTANT TO START OFF SLOWLY,or big troubles.

We are learning all the time ourselves.

Support the goat:
mikey
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 02:53:26 AM by mikey » Logged
samX
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 12:13:45 AM »

mikey,
alaminos farm attain that 300+ lactation days i think because they use Saanens..and of course as youve said the forage....i also read from the yahoogroups taht jeff lim is into milking and uses saanens and saanen-anglo crosses.neo abalos is also using saanen breeds.

i know that kangkong the upland type always seeing their seeds on plant corners of harwares in malls.ill try to plant them. we could cook them and feed the extras for our goats.we dont have bloat casualties we only have them during rainy season and very minimal.ill try to add baking soda when raining season starts.ill add them to darak/our feed formulation. how many would i add for every kilo of feeds?

we are already giving red rockies to or goats and yellow rockies for our sheep. do you think if it could harm them if i give salt to lick?im also thinking to use the table salt with iodine but afraid to try.i do add salt to our feeds that we make at 1/2 kilo per 25 kilos.

what type of vinegar do you use? ive been using apple cider vinegar to my fightingcocks and racing pigeons to prevent coccidiosis.could i use apple cider vinegar?how much would i add to the water?

and lastly how did you acquire the famancha chart?i ask relative and friends in the US to look for it in and didnt find one.you could only get one by doing a 6 month seminar...\
what chemical dewormers do you use? for kids and for the does after giving birth?

haha i think i have too many questions na.... Smiley



here is another UBGSRA member farm:
roland laderas
san ildefonso,bulacan

buck house

















« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 12:31:16 AM by samX » Logged

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mikey
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2009, 05:54:17 AM »

SamX
True people use the saanen breed for milking and breed them to a anglo,they call this a Snubian in the USA.I have seen many anglos give a 305 day lactation in N.America.The anglo will give less milk but all milk breeds should give a 305 lactation period.Diet is someting we are working to improve our anglos plus select breeding,we are many many years away from producing a anglo we will be happy with.

If you are using red rockies then stick with that,in some areas of the Philippines like our place very remote we have to look for other things to use because we cannot find what other people use.
We use coconut vinegar because that is all that is at our place.Apple cider vinegar is the best,they tell me and you do not use very much or the water will taste off and the goats will not drink it.You have to adjust it at first until you get it right.

The baking soda we use 3-4 spoonfuls for about 1 kilo of feeds.Our goats are dewormed by the local vet,at one time we used a broad sprectrum on our goats,Albendazole, unless they have liver flukes then we like to use Fendazole,now the vet is using another brand of dewormer medicine,change every now and again so the goats do not build up a resistence,I think they are some sort of sulfa drugs,not sure.

People will do things a little different in different locations throughout the country,our place is in the mountains,remote with slope land,type #2 climate maximum rainfall short dry season and in a typhoon belt.Your area looks nice flat land and maybe longer dry season.We have more worm problems because of our weather system.

I will try and send you a PM with the eye chart.

Remember what works well on one farm may not work well on another farm,location of the farm is different and needs a different management system throughout the country.

Nice to look at all your pictures and how people build their farms,interesting.I want to look at those big anglo bucks from England and America,someday we hope to have big bucks like those.

Good Farming To You:
mikey
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samX
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2009, 12:11:52 AM »

mikey,
i have heard about snubians on nubian talk.but really dont know before what snubians are.

thanks for the tips you tught me.learned a lot.i just hope that someday i would go on to milking also.


heres another UBGSRA member farm. i just visited the farm last week, and acquired 3 beautiful f1's. the owner is the father of a good friend from araneta(college years).

theyll be focusing on dairy for their next phase in goat raising.waiting for their saanens. they will also venture into vermiculture with the help of fellow UBGSRA memebers.

manny perez
location: sta.maria,bulacan








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mikey
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2009, 06:33:55 AM »

SamX
Good for you,you bought 3 f1s,so you will be going into the milk business.Worm composting seem to be big business with goats these days.The Snubian has been bred for many years in N.America,they are not all that common tho.

After I found that website about the Anglos in England,emailed a breeder there,he tells me not to feed the goats hog concentrates,will not do anything to improve their production.Tells me the same thing Texas tells me,anglos are bred to be heavy milkers with lactation periods.Selective breeding with the right diet is the only thing that will improve our herd.The main problem I see in the Philippines is that goats do not like to eat dried grasses,goats in N.America and Europe eat alot of dried grasses (hay).Looking into beans right now for our goats,beans have protein and with extra calcium may help to increase production.Time will tell.

Looking at ampayala (bitter melon) leaves as a natural dewormer also.Might work,know some feed their goats garlic and small amounts of ginger for worms,looking into this also.
Posted a website for the eye chart that anyone can look at and study for their goats.

The management of dairy goats is different from meat goats,diet is so important because it can cause problems if it is not right,mastitis is something that is hell to deal with,improper diet or dirty floors.

Nice pictures from your area and good looking goats.

Support The Goat:
mikey
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samX
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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2009, 12:13:39 AM »

mikey,
vermiculture do really give goat farmers here an extra income.initial cost would just be the beds and starting worms.

yesterday we discussed in our meeting about the hog feeds.i opened it up as we discussed it here. a fellow UBGSRA member with a commercial piggery that mix his own hog feeds said that he does not give his grower ration to goats because his grower feeds cotains chromium.we finished the discussion that the group will formulate our feeds as a group to lessen our expenses.

we also have our farm tour at jomar hizons goat and cattle farm.then again i acquired 3 f1's. but fellow members bought purebred anglo-nubians imported from australlia.dairy lines with papers. we are hoping to improve more the groups dairy line as a fellow group member already acquired kastdemure lines.total of 3 imported anglo bucks and 38 heads f1 and native does(most are pregnants with them roaming are the anglo bucks).its really sad that we could not get support from our government thats why we sacrifice on our own as a group giving into what we can to acquire good bloods for our goat meat/dairy project.and maybe someday help fellow bulacan farmers into this venture to have an extra income.

about feeding hay i dont know if my technique will work for you.when we cut grass i air dried it at least 12 hours some would be dried for a day. i spray them with molasses diluted on water.must be same ratio always to have the same taste.the i slowly add ginikan(rice stalk hay) and also spray it. my real trick is i have sheeps(some of them will readily eat the hay and eat them all). as the goat sees it goat will take some.the problem is that when they are given again fresh grass(0nly air dried for an hour to 3 hours).

have you tried pigeon pea.? a fellow member uses it for protein.and it have a good effect on his goats and neighbors as you can cook its seeds and feed the leaves and stalks to goats.i have not tried it but will plant some this coming rainy season.

pls update me if the ginger and garlic will work for you.ampalaya leaves is hard to find here unless youll buy it. thanks for the eyechart i have tried it last week when i deworm my lambs.of the 6 lambs scheduled to be dewromed i just dewromed 1 with the basis of the chart.hope it works well with me.


Jomar hizon farm(pampangas's best)
location: pampanga

one thing i like in his farm are the electric fences.the gadget will cost about 12k from australlia.

boers


anglo does from australlia


wagyu bull




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nemo
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2009, 05:20:00 PM »

electric fence are now available sa mga local agristore but buying it abroad is much cheaper pa rin.
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mikey
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 02:48:14 AM »

Really nice pictures,anglos with frosted ears,look good.Are those cattle from Australia?
The question of hog concentrates,England and Texas told me not to use it if possible,good for emergencies.Pigeon peas or I think they are also called flield peas or cow peas we hope to try next year.This year we will plant no corn but beans instead,Texas recommended this to us to see if we can improve our lactation periods.
Still seems to be problems to get goats to eat dried feeds unless molasses is added,not sure how one can solve this problem.The problem with dairy animals is diet related,if the diet is off nothing but problems.
The ginger and garlic,a farm on the island of Cebu is using it,might be good for light loads but the think chemical dewormers work the best,I maybe be wrong tho.The eye chart is called a field guide,still have to keep an eye on your livestock.
The question on Govt. help.I will relate this story to you,maybe 3 years or so ago the Govt. brought a pb. boer into this district,big district,the boer was to be move every 4-6 months to a new location,it died before it ever got close to our place beacuse the people in charge of taking good care of him did not know what they were doing,cost the Govt. P20,000 easy in expences.The Govt. said they would not replace him because its too costly.The Govt. has tried to help.The Govt. can only do so much.On the other hand,at times things work easier with the private sector over the Govt. with all the red tape and such.
We need all our manure for our crops,the land was farmed too extensive with chemicals before,needs some organic matter to make it productive again.

As a group if you can formulate your own feeds so much the better,cheaper in the long run as feed costs with any production is a killer.The main reason why we left the hog business.

Sounds like your group is doing well,you have some nice livestock and once bred you are on your way.Good for you.
Have no knowledge on electric fencing,for us just added expences as our land is in the mountains and on a slope.

Some really interesting barn designs.
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samX
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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2009, 11:21:57 PM »

mikey,
the wagyu-freisan cross are from australia i dont know about the brahamans.i realy want to have one of those anglos but my budget did not permit.hehe

beans for lactation?what type of beans?

ive beean to a fellow UBGSRA member mr.icho gonzales of san ildefonso bulacan.i dont have the opportunity to get pics of his goat house. what amazed me is that his goat will readily eat rice straws(ginikan) while eating fresh napiers. he said that his secret is in the timing and he cuts the rice straw at about 4-5 inches with a lilik.he feeds napier with the same cut.

sometimes the government have the problem sometimes the beneficiaries...

many of our members will be starting into dairy this year.hopefully most of us are into dairy next year.anglo will be the line to be used.we dont have any saanens yet maybe in june with the help of NDA for one of our member.

i have no more pics to post as of now.maybe you could post some pic of your farm?goat house?





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mikey
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2009, 09:49:11 AM »

SamX
As of now have no pictures of the goat house,will post later this year.I do have a picture of the hog barns under the swine section;Lets See,Skyfox told me he thought they looked like a church,holy hogs,hehehe.Because production was so expensive last year we sold off the hog herd,now wish to get back into the hog business but in a smaller way as farming is not cheap as a business venture these days but hogs are good producers.

Beans,would not matter what type of beans as most beans have about 18% protein except soy which is higher in protein.I think they are called winged beans and mongo beans,poultry really love mongo beans and they are small no need for milling.Thinking about mixing corn and beans together for a general feed for the livestock.

Once the numbers of anglos increase,the price will come down,true they are expensive.You have some F1s,if you could breed them to a purebred anglo buck then you will have some F2s(75%)anglo,you now have some milking goats.Personally I feel hybrids due better over the purebreeds,seem to be a stronger goat in general.My plan is to have hybrids over purebreeds for dairy.
I have found that napier cut younger is preferred over older napier,interesting goats like rice straw,not much or any protein in rice straw,is there?add molasses to most feed stuffs and goats seem to eat.
I wish your UBGSRA memebers all the best with their dairy venture next year.

p.s.I think pigeon peas is something like lima beans,not sure tho.

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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2009, 10:20:10 AM »

There was alot to read in this thread, so honestly i did not thoroughly read it b4 posting now.
I will go back, to review more later, when my eyes not so tired.

I have asked this question often, and wish to hear your thoughts, as i am new to this forum.

Why is the discussion of Housing Goats in Philippines, always so prominant?
There are more goats raised in the country, with no housing. There are certainly benefits to housed goats, but i do not hear much about the downsides of housing goats elevated as these examples show.

First, i wonder if there has ever been any study on increased ailments such as pneumonia, or other respirtory problems, in association with elevated housing.
The expense of such housing is never calculated in ROI, in comparison to shelter based on ground.

And if there is no reason for Raised housing with goats farmed in similar climatic conditions as Philippines, why is there still such a focus on such a large scale, capital investment?

I wonder these questions, because from my experience in Philippines, there seems to be a lack of interest due to the cost factor, in smaller goat farmers increasing to medium sized operations.
Most advice given, centres around the housing first.

And why is the Raised housing/cut and carry method, focused on more, in comparison to the Cheaper, simple methods of ground Shelter and grazing methods?

I think large growth would come in medium sized commercial herds in Philippines, if both options were equally represented in associations and such.
I think there is obvious places for Raised housing such as these examples. Milking parlours in sizes larger than 20 head.
Purebred, breeding stock breeders.

But in commercial operations, i dont see the need or benefit to developing such housing.
The money would be better spent, buying more does, would it not?

kev
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nemo
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2009, 12:10:27 AM »

Most people who asked for goat housing are people who like to invest in livestocks in long term.

There is a book about goat farming here in the Philippines which includes everything from housing to ROI. 
In making a house certainly the downside is the cost but as business minded person they will just look at it as an investment.

Most do cut and carry to maximize the land area. Not all farmers have vast land that their animal can roam around.




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mikey
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2009, 12:19:13 AM »

Kev
It would not be fair for me to comment for the goat industry as a whole as we do not belong to any goat assoc. in the Philippines,there are members on this forum who are assoc. with the national federation.
Back in 2005 when we started with goats,safe to say the national average for kid losses were approx. 60% yearly.Also with more expensive pb. breeds imported into the country,management became more of an issue,housing was one of them.From my own experience,once we built better housing our losses dropped below 5% yearly.Raised flooring,7ft. off the ground made it easier for the caretakers to clean and our worm loads dropped,goats are also checked daily for health issues,greater control overall.True,once housing is built the overhead increases,personally I never rely on ROIs anylonger,so many different factors come into play that can throw any ROIs off,location is one of them,our area is remote to begin with so our overhead in general is higher.Also if I build a goat house,all around me feel they also need a house for their goats.
One problem with a house 7ft.off the ground is that in the rainy season,cooler air comes through the flooring and causes problems for does kidding.Our solutation is having kidding pens only 3ft. off the ground,works well.
True if your stocking rates are too high in your barn,goats will develope a cold leading to more serious problems,adjustments have to be made until one finds the right balance.
Security is another issue,takes more people to watch over the herd if they are free grazing and chasing after them rounding them up.In our area with the jungle it is easy to lose goats.Cut and carry is more labour intensive,expensive, but greater control overall.Every farm has to make their own management decisions as to what is best for their operation.When one is paying top dollar for expensive goats,security is a big issue and confinement with cut and carry out weighs overhead.

Like I stated,I cannot talk for the industry as a whole but from my own personal experience.

mikey
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samX
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« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2009, 12:42:22 AM »

kev,
one of the downside of going to elevated and better housing is i think only the cost.

my advantages as of now are the ease of cleaning, no mortality as of now on kids and lambs,more healthy flocks.

my system is semi intensive because our farm is just a hectare.cut and carry and i let them graze when the weather permits.

here in p.i. during the rainy months when it rains it really pours. and for our place where there are no mountains(rice land) and large trees to barricade during storms it really affects our animals thats why we do have high mortlities before.

i coudnt sacrifice the welfare and health of my animals during rains and storms thats why i invest more on housing.

mikey,
the group is lucky enough to have darwin tinasas of greener pastures as a visitor for 2 days. i dont know if you know him. he's from davao and raises dairy anglo nubians and been successful. he's a farmer scientist of PCARRD.unfortunately he has to go to the dairy congress on thursday.

he says that indigonofera and mullberry do really have an effect on milk volumes of goat. and having different kind of forage also helps. at least 5 different types.


here's another goat house design:
doc lazaro farm
baliuag,bulacan










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